Home > Personal > Random thoughts

Random thoughts

My shoes are not well suited to our current weather. I’ve needed new ones for a while now, but there’s something about retaining water that makes it a higher priority.

I’ve been here for over three years and today is the first time I’ve checked a book out of the library.

Do bizarre protests, such as insufficiently clothed people lying on sidewalks, do any good for the cause? My library visit seems to indicate they can make people think about an issue, but the book I checked out isn’t exactly pro-animal rights.

I wish pro-choicers would stop using the women’s rights/right to privacy to argue for abortion rights. It’s essentially irrelevant; the issue is whether the unborn are people, worthy of rights. Privacy is an evasion of that central point of contention.

Good to see Wulfgar is feeling better and isn’t done with blogging.

Skeptic has a new website. It’s much better than the travesty of web design that was there before.

I really should stop adding thoughts to this and start studying for my networks quiz tomorrow.

Categories: Personal
  1. October 5, 2005 at 3:42 am

    “I wish pro-choicers would stop using the women’s rights/right to privacy to argue for abortion rights. It’s essentially irrelevant; the issue is whether the unborn are people, worthy of rights. Privacy is an evasion of that central point of contention.”

    As a pro-choicer, I’ll disagree with that. What you’re not stating (and I won’t make a guess as to deliberacy) is the second half of the question regarding whether the “unborn are people, worthy of rights”. When it comes right down to it, what you’re actually asking is whether the “unborn are worthy of rights”. The “people” bit is really irrelevant as beings that exist outside of the womb — people — are denied rights all the time… such as when women are denied the right to abort a pregnancy.

    So the whole question, as I see it is, “do the rights of the unborn trump the rights of pregnant women or women that might become pregnant”? As it exists in my mind, the privacy issue is really just a subset of this issue.

    And of course, that’s for each person to decide individually.

  2. October 5, 2005 at 8:44 am

    The “people” bit is really irrelevant as beings that exist outside of the womb — people — are denied rights all the time… such as when women are denied the right to abort a pregnancy.

    I only meant worthy of some rights, not all rights. Every person has some rights.

    So the whole question, as I see it is, “do the rights of the unborn trump the rights of pregnant women or women that might become pregnant”? As it exists in my mind, the privacy issue is really just a subset of this issue.

    Yes, this is issue, but what I have a problem with is people who say privacy trumps everything in this debate. Or at least argue that way. I don’t see how privacy can trump murder, which is what abortion is if the unborn are people.

  3. October 5, 2005 at 10:51 am

    I hate the “rights” argument too, Jeff. Why can’t people just argue intelligently that there are certain cases when murder is justified and even morally right? Harder to convince people of that, I guess, despite examples being all around them.

  4. October 5, 2005 at 3:34 pm

    “I don’t see how privacy can trump murder, which is what abortion is if the unborn are people.”

    I beg to differ. If all you know about a situation is that one person killed another one, it need not have been murder. It could be manslaughter, it could be self-defense, it could be negligence, it could be a war, it could be a death sentence and in this case it could be abortion.

    Murder, just about everywhere you go, is usually defined as the “unlawful” or the “unlawful and unjustifiable” killing of one person by another. Were the killing of one person by another simply reduced to murder, the Second Amendment would be meaningless, for if you tried to protect your own property from theft or your spouse from being raped in the middle of the night, by shooting the intruders, you’d be guilty of murder.

    Also, I’m not sure that the anti-abortion folks are really ready for the consequences of abortion being murder. Could you imagine the zeal a liberal prosecutor would have in pursuing the arrest and conviction of a sixteen year-old daughter of a prominent Republican after it was discovered that she’d had a back-alley abortion somewhere? I can imagine this idea of the future, and I tell ya, it stinks.

  5. October 5, 2005 at 4:23 pm

    I beg to differ. If all you know about a situation is that one person killed another one, it need not have been murder. It could be manslaughter, it could be self-defense, it could be negligence, it could be a war, it could be a death sentence and in this case it could be abortion.

    Abortion isn’t any of those mitigating circumstances, execpt self-defense in some cases. My question would be can we say abortion is anything but murder if we conclude the unborn are people. I don’t think so.

    Murder, just about everywhere you go, is usually defined as the “unlawful” or the “unlawful and unjustifiable” killing of one person by another. Were the killing of one person by another simply reduced to murder, the Second Amendment would be meaningless, for if you tried to protect your own property from theft or your spouse from being raped in the middle of the night, by shooting the intruders, you’d be guilty of murder.

    I don’t disagree, but as I said above, I don’t see how we can call abortion anything but murder, if the unborn are people. All the exceptions to murder (self-defense and such) are mitigating circumstances. I can’t think of any mitigating circumstances that abortion falls into.

    Also, I’m not sure that the anti-abortion folks are really ready for the consequences of abortion being murder. Could you imagine the zeal a liberal prosecutor would have in pursuing the arrest and conviction of a sixteen year-old daughter of a prominent Republican after it was discovered that she’d had a back-alley abortion somewhere? I can imagine this idea of the future, and I tell ya, it stinks.

    I agree and I would go even further: I don’t think pro-lifers really believe abortion is murder, no matter how much they proclaim it as such. If it were murder, this is a holocaust on an unprecedented scale and they should be in active revolt. Most of them support wars against other countries over less egregious crimes. Of course, we’ve had little of that type of activity and the anti-abortion groups try to distance themselves from it.

  6. October 5, 2005 at 4:25 pm

    Lina – I’m sure you’ve spelled this out on SOT at one point or another and I’ve forgotten your reasoning, but how exactly do you determine when murder is ok and isn’t ok?

  7. October 5, 2005 at 5:19 pm

    I could say, broadly, when it’s for the greater good. I could say, broadly, when it leads to less suffering. Obviously this gets into many a philosophical debate — so I guess I answered my own question as to why this is too difficult a concept to latch on to, even though it’s certainly what the issue boils down to. However, as a society, we have obviously decided certain situations allow and even warrant killing — war, euthanasia, self-defense. And my argument for abortion is that society is better off, the parents are better off, and the child is better off NOT being raised by an unprepared parent. If the adoption system were flawless, that’d be a great alternative (although I wouldn’t personally have any preference between the two). Of course a ton, if not most, parents are unprepared, in my opinion, and I’m not suggesting any policy measures regarding them, but I’m all for not adding to the problem. I know a debate like this will never enter the policy arena though, because most people are tied to the idea of human life being precious/special/important.

  8. October 6, 2005 at 3:50 pm

    Still, you’re essentially making a rights argument. You’re just granting rights based on societal good, rather than some characteristic of the being in question.

  9. October 6, 2005 at 6:25 pm

    Well, the right to commit murder. Not the right to “choose what to do with her body.”

  10. October 6, 2005 at 9:36 pm

    You’re just granting rights based on societal good, rather than some characteristic of the being in question.

    This is different than what any and every society does on earth exactly how?

    What you’re saying, by calling abortion murder, is approprately parsed as: “Abortion, which happens to be a lawful procedure, is unlawful”. Period. The reason it and a lot of other things are based on societal good is because there is no way to deny a US citizen her rights at the expense of a being that is not a citizen of anywhere.

    The rights of the unborn, such as they may be, should not be held to be above those of people that are citizens under the Constitution. Until that nut gets resolved — and I suspect that’s not going to happen without some interesting interpretations of the 13th and 14th Amendments — abortion will never be murder.

    Nice try.

  11. October 6, 2005 at 10:54 pm

    This is different than what any and every society does on earth exactly how?

    I said it was?

    Declaring abortion as murder seems legally difficult, I agree. However, if abortion is indeed an unjustified killing of a person (which is what I mean by murder; a moral sense, not a legal sense), shouldn’t we change our laws and constitution? It doesn’t seem impossible or completely untenable. I guess the question would be: is it in the interest of society to ban abortion? That seems tricky. The purpose of our laws and government is to give people “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Maybe it makes our lives a bit more difficult if we outlaw abortion, but if the unborn are actually people, don’t their lives count in the equation?

    What’s with that “Nice try”? It’s not like I think abortion is murder or have an interest in setting the debate where I’m arguing for.

  1. No trackbacks yet.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: